Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
This area is for discussing Religion, Spirituality and Morals. Say what you want here. We'll let you. The Standard Rules apply, but we won't tell you to take it somewhere else. :-)

This is where we discuss non-magickal, non-spirituality stuff. I'll be kinda surprised if these forums are much used. :-P

ANYTHING YOU WRITE IN HERE MAY END UP ON THE MAIN WEBSITE IF I SEE REASON TO COPY IT (I will mention it was your name however)!

TOPIC: God and the Devil

God and the Devil 8 years 4 months ago #295

  • Jace_Bade_London
  • Jace_Bade_London's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Journeyman Board Mage
  • Posts: 75
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 1
I've never been terribly religious... regardless of how you believe, I think a person should accept that the holy books, even if they are the word of a God, are really interpretations of that selfsame word. The way people use religion to advance their intolerance and bigotry, as well as all the people who have died for religion don't thrill me either. So I thought, what's up with religion? My friend, who is not exactly an atheist so much as a boat rocker had a quote on his email, included below:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~Epicuris
And I thought, well, that's a good question. And then I had another thought.
As far as I know (Which isn't very far), in christianity, God is all powerful, and the devil is part of him, who fell from grace. Something like that. But evil is supposed to come from the devil, right? So what if, the devil and god are both equally powerful. In that case, God is all-good, and the devil is all-evil. God can't just fix everything, or the devil could just screw it all up. The battle between good and evil is not fought at armageddon, but every day, as the overall good and evil on earth and in humanity shifts balance. And only if the balance gets tipped far enough, by people doing good or bad, and changing in their hearts, can one side win.
I think that would explain "whence cometh evil"
God would still be all powerful... but if two such beings existed, they'd have to set rules, or everything would be chaos.
I don't necessarily believe any of this, but it's an interesting concept, I think.
On any site other than one that teaches magic, I think I'd have to worry about being burned for heresy...
What do you folks think?
Cuz I'm not sure =)

I want to disclaim something here. I neither endorse, nor feel solid in believing anything I said there. This post was not exactly meant to be deep and meaningful. I just wanted to come up with an interesting and creative way to address the question Epicuris posed in the quote I included...
Last Edit: 8 years 4 months ago by Jace_Bade_London.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re:God and the Devil 8 years 4 months ago #296

  • pbwv15
  • pbwv15's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 111
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 4
Ok... I'll act like I believe some of the foundational assumptions in the post.

By this light I'm not sure you would ever have a "good winning" or "evil winning" Scales might tip one way or another, but each moment is a choice.

In fact if the scales were to tilt to far one way there would be major incentive for persons to return it to balance.

Of course, Christians believe that there will come a day when God will basically step back from the equation and help the world fall into complete depravity for a while before laying the smack down and turning the world into awesomeness for 1000 years. At that point there is supposed to be a giant purge where the Devil and everyone else is slain/cast out, and everyone who followed God gets to go "sit at the foot of the Lord" for all eternity.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re:God and the Devil 8 years 4 months ago #297

  • Jace_Bade_London
  • Jace_Bade_London's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Journeyman Board Mage
  • Posts: 75
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 1
I have to admit, there are quite a few assumptions... but they give the average drunken philosopher like me somewhere to start. (note, I am neither drunk nor a philosopher.) This is all just abstract theory thinking, nothing real or even that believable :P

I never meant to say that the scale would ever tip... in fact, I almost said that if this is the case, the battle would essentially go on forever. Thus, 'the eternal battle of good and evil'. just a thought, not actually a belief or anything. Please correct me on anything that isn't actually accurate, i don't know very much about what I'm talking about here...
which means I really shouldn't talk, but the concept would make a good book idea, at least. Can't help but think like an author all the time, I guess =)

apologies for any offense this bit of tangental thinking may have caused.
Last Edit: 8 years 4 months ago by Jace_Bade_London.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re:God and the Devil 8 years 4 months ago #298

  • pbwv15
  • pbwv15's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 111
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 4
after a certain point debating philosophy means "never having to say you're wrong." ;-)

I just was pointing out the inconsistency of the idea that one side could win. :-P
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re:God and the Devil 8 years 4 months ago #299

  • Jace_Bade_London
  • Jace_Bade_London's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Journeyman Board Mage
  • Posts: 75
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 1
When I talk about religion (bad idea), inconsistencies occur because I don't know anything (which is why it's a bad idea XD).

Oh no, I'm gonna have to break my intention of leaving this at that. Do you think that good and evil can be defined without the other? If there was no evil, then how would we define good? Not something I think about all that often, actually, but this could be interesting =)
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re:God and the Devil 8 years 4 months ago #300

  • pbwv15
  • pbwv15's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 111
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 4
I consider good and evil to be constructs used to control people.

So my answer to your question would be that good and evil are whatever you want to convince people they are to accomplish your goals.
  1. Start a "non -profit" organization
  2. Preach your beliefs loudly and get followers
  3. Convince your followers that something you want them to do is good and something you don't want them to do is evil

Extra points if you bastardize an old religion that makes most everything evil telling your followers that those other evils are minor or forgiven, but THESE ones must be stopped/punished.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re:God and the Devil 8 years 4 months ago #301

  • Jace_Bade_London
  • Jace_Bade_London's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Journeyman Board Mage
  • Posts: 75
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 1
Hmm, okay.
I'm gonna stop talking about subjects I know little about now =)
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re:God and the Devil 8 years 4 months ago #302

  • pbwv15
  • pbwv15's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 111
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 4
lol... don't do that.

With philosophy, the way to become informed about subjects is to either talk with others (who hopefully aren't talking out their asses) or study (but who wants to do that?!?). :P
Last Edit: 8 years 4 months ago by pbwv15.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: God and the Devil 8 years 1 day ago #353

  • Digdugr
  • Digdugr's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Board Dabbler
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: 0
What I know of Christianity is thus: Evil doesn't come from the devil, just as good doesn't come from God. God is good, in that they are one and the same thing. So the choice to be different than God is necessarily evil. It's only a definition of terms, except that God chooses to punish you for these distinctions, so :/
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: God and the Devil 6 years 10 months ago #374

  • Brian
  • Brian's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Board Dabbler
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: 0
Well, to throw my two cents into the pot, first some things I use to work through this as I have thought about this before.

I consider spirits a personification of something, the bigger the thing they personify, the bigger they are. Bigger spirits usually acquire the label of god. So there is a God, which if you follow my structure would be a personification of all the verse (whether uni- or multi-). So all things are of God, but not God in of themselves. Now what if that God set out the common ground, and on that common ground we all interact. On this ground you have big players (gods) who represent certain things, and smaller players through all the aspects of life.

So now enter values. Well, the Abrahamic god and its(his) followers consider it(him) good, and all others bad(loosely). What about its(his) opposite number? Does the devil and its(his) followers consider themselves good and all others bad?

Next distinction I use in thinking around in this space, is understanding that there is a difference between faith, belief, and religion. Many times these are lumped together and assumed to mean the same things. Faith and beliefs are rather close and I am not going to digress between those two. But religion is the structure placed around those two, the governmental structure set up to control the interactions of people involved with it. So I usually do not have a problem with peoples faith and beliefs, but with religions.

Next thing is in the bible, God does indirectly admit there are other gods, Something like "set no other gods before me". But the religions that base off of the book(s), seem to forget that.
Last Edit: 6 years 10 months ago by Brian.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Time to create page: 0.234 seconds